Talking About Not Talking

by Mary-Elizabeth

“I mean, people in general didn't talk about that stuff. It wasn't discussed.”

Mary-Elizabeth: It's the day before the second What We Hold session. And naturally I had waited up until the last minute to tell my mother that I needed to record her for an interview. She agrees to be interviewed, despite hating the sound of her own voice. So she's a little quick with her words, but she doesn't complain, even though it's 7pm and close to her bedtime.

She meets me in my room with my dog, trailing behind her. As they make their way to my bed, where this interview will be recorded. She lies outstretched with her head on several of my pillows. She's very cozy, especially since she's in her humongous gray turtleneck. And my dog, Archie, anxiously parades around her, since he knows it's almost bedtime, but they're both ready to do this interview for me.

Mom: Well, how long am I talking for?

Mary-Elizabeth: I don't know.

Mom: Are you asking me questions?

Mary-Elizabeth: What do you want to talk about?

Mom: What am I—what is the assignment?

Mary-Elizabeth: You have to like talk about something like family history… or just something you can talk about for like thirty minutes, or...

Mom: Thirty?!

Mary-Elizabeth: [Exclaims] Well it's like an interview! It's not like 10 minutes.

Mom: Thirty?

Mary-Elizabeth: Yeah.

Mom: I can't talk for thirty minutes!

Mary-Elizabeth: I originally asked for her to speak for thirty minutes because I thought that this interview had to be thirty minutes long, but my mother did end up talking for about thirty-five minutes with little to no interruption.

Mom: My great-grandparents were from Italy, and they were very poor, very uneducated. They never learned English and they couldn't read Italian either. They were illiterate in two languages. They couldn't even sign their name. And they… came to America and they moved to Wooster, which is in Massachusetts. And, uh, my grandmother was born there, and because it was the depression, they were even more poor. And… they weren't educated themselves. She married my grandfather who was Irish, because my great grandmother had always told her, she said, no matter what you do, don't marry an Italian man, because she said they're all bastards, which is probably pretty close to the truth. So, she married my grandfather. And she had two older brothers, one was named Jimmy and the other one was Joe.

Mary-Elizabeth: Are those the two in the mafia?

Mom: Yes. Jimmy was maybe the oldest or maybe the second-oldest. He was in the mafia and he was supposedly either the top guy in Wooster or pretty close t,o the top. And then Joe, who was closer to my grandmother's age, he was a little bit of an idiot. So Jimmy, kind of, you know, maybe not conned, but got him to participate. And their parents, my great-grandparents were totally clueless and they were just concerned with making sure everyone had enough to eat. I mean, they couldn't really think beyond that.

They decided to get away from that whole scene, and that was why they moved to California.

Mary-Elizabeth: But didn't someone go to jail?

Mom: Joe, the idiot, he killed somebody. Jimmy was in jail himself. It wasn't really something that they enjoyed talking about when I was a kid. And, so Joe was in San Quentin and I saw him a couple of times—

Mary-Elizabeth: In prison?

Mom: —when I was a kid. No, because had really bad, lung cancer. He ended up getting really sick. He would come to PC and Dan's house. And, um...

Mary-Elizabeth: You guys still wouldn't talk about the mafia thing? It was just, he would show up…

Mom: Well, it was weird, I mean, he… you know, my grandparents would be there. And then I just remember this very...

Mary-Elizabeth: Quiet?

Mom: Italian-looking older, man, and he would just sit there and he wouldn't say anything.

Mary-Elizabeth: He didn't say anything to you?

Mom: Wouldn't say anything to anybody.

Mary-Elizabeth: What was the point of going back then?

Mom: I don't know. I mean, it was like he was a statue and nobody would really talk to him.

Mary-Elizabeth: After hearing about Joe's story and how his different life had resulted in him being very distant from our family, I remember that my aunt Pia and Aunt Nina are also very distant from my family, because they're different. But they're not different because they're a part of the mafia, they're different because they're both gay.

Mary-Elizabeth: What happened when like, Pia and Nina came out as gay?

Mom: They never did.

Mary-Elizabeth: They never did? Even today?

Mom: Well, I mean it was always obvious with Nina. Like Nina, never… well, even with that, you know, at least I never heard the word gay or lesbian or homosexual or anything like that, but, you know, it was a whole different time. I mean, people in general didn't talk about that stuff. It wasn't discussed. So, it's possible. And plus I was a kid, right. I mean, I'm sure like PC and Dan and my mother knew that Nina was gay. I mean, you couldn't miss it. Plus she was in the Navy and she had a girlfriend, but they never talked about it. But then with Pia, no one knew.

Mary-Elizabeth: Oh, well, yeah. It was not as obvious, I guess.

Mom: Well, no one knew. I mean, she's been with Karen since I was in elementary school and they've always lived together, but everyone just said they were roommates. PC has a lot of theories that, that they secretly got married in Japan.

Mary-Elizabeth: Japan?

Mom: I don't know whether or not that's... and even now they don't talk.

Mary-Elizabeth: Never?

Mom: Never.

Mary-Elizabeth: Never?

Mom: Never.

Mary-Elizabeth: How—how do they, they just, you just, everyone just kind of connected the dots like, oh, they're actually gay? They never like, said anything?

Mom: I didn't know until I was in college.

Mary-Elizabeth: But how did that, how do you, how were you told, like, did they say something?

Mom: No, PC told me!

Mary-Elizabeth: Do you remember how she knew?

Mom: I don't know how she knew, but, I was shocked and… I mean, I didn't even really know. I didn't really even know what it meant, honestly. So, I was totally confused, but. I remember I said, wait, but there, I thought they're, roommates. I think everyone just figured they were going to do whatever they wanted to do. And if they wanted to talk about it, they could talk about it. If they didn't want to talk about it, they didn't talk about it.

Mary-Elizabeth: No one really talks about anything in this family.

Mom: Oh no, they used to talk up a storm, but they would just, you know, they never talked about that.